The Pope and the Rabbi: deepening the relationship

Lord Jonathan Sacks, Chief Rabbi of the United Hebrew Congregation of the Commonwealth, met with Pope Benedict on Monday to discuss interfaith relations and their common concern for the decline of spiritual values within European culture.
Rabbi Sacks, who has been spiritual leader of the mainstream Orthodox Jewish communities in the UK, Australia and Hong Kong since 1991, said faith, in the modern world, has no political power but it does have a great deal of influence - especially among those who question the kind of value system they want for their children.
Asked about a rise in anti-Semitism in Europe, the Rabbi stressed that Jews cannot fight anti-semitism alone, "the victim cannot cure the crime, the hated cannot cure the hate." He said he will fight for the right of Christians anywhere in the world to live their faith without fear, "but I need them to fight for the right of my people to live their faith without fear."
Asked if the current political stalemate in between Israelis and Palestinians could be behind this resurgent anti-Semitism, Sacks said "we must not allow ourselves to import a message of conflict from the Middle East to Europe.

Listen to Philippa Hitchen's full interview with Rabbi Sacks:

Read the full text of the interview:

I’d like to ask you about your conversation with the Pope this morning – this was your 2nd meeting after you welcomed him to the interfaith meeting in Twickenham last September?

I had been asked to welcome him on behalf of the non-Christian faiths in Britain and it was actually a very moving encounter, I think we felt that something had happened at the moment and it was, you know, a sharing of faith across the boundaries and it was very moving. The Pope at the time told me he wanted to deepen that relationship so I felt this visit was a way of moving that a step further.

What can you tell us about your meeting this morning?

We are very concerned obviously with the soul of Europe, I mean Europe was built on Judeo-Christian foundations, even the market was built on Judeo-Christian foundations, and scholars are fascinated as to how it was that China that had been way in advance of the West until the fifteenth century, invented things long before the West did, failed to develop a market economy or a democratic society or an industrial revolution. And most scholars take the view that the difference between the West and China was that Judeo-Christian heritage.

Many religious leaders share this concern about Europe’s consumer culture and the erosion of our Judeo-Christian heritage – do you see this as a passing phase or will people of faith have to continue fighting for their right to be part of the national conversation?

In the Jewish community we do not feel marginalized, we find more and more people coming to synagogue, more and more parents wanting to send their children to Jewish schools and the impression is growing that there is something lacking in the wider secular culture when all that matters is “what I am, what I spend, what I buy, what I earn” instead of “what I am” and I think parents are beginning to say we “don’t want that for our children, we want our children to learn about a much older and more spacious heritage”.

You speak regularly of the connections between this loss of spiritual values and the current economic crisis – you say it’s no coincidence that, in Britain, shopping on Sunday and the deregulation of the financial markets occurred at about the same time – yet despite these clear connections, government and financial leaders seem increasingly unwilling to listen to people of faith?

I think faith in the modern world, and I wouldn’t have it any other way, has no power at all. But it does have a great deal of influence. Now politics is about power. So politicians and religious figures inhabit different universes, although many politicians have strong religious faith, but it is difficult to know exactly how do you create a partnership between the two, which is one reason I came to see the Pope, because I think if Jewish and Christian voices are heard, along parallel lines, then they should not underestimate the influence they have. And of course that was very clear in terms of the visit of the Pope to Britain just over a year ago. Everyone was amazed that the interest was so acute and so widespread and everyone saw a gentle, very spiritual, very holy person and that had huge impact. So yes, it is true that religion doesn’t play a part in the political arena but I’m glad about that. We should not aspire to political power. But we are talking to people, especially when they’re thinking “what kind of answer do I want to give to the meaning of life and what kind of value system do I want for my children”.

Were you able to discuss the current state of Jewish-Christian relations with the Pope today?

Well the Pope himself raised it and continually wanted to know how was that state of relationship in Britain, where in fact of course it’s as good as you’ll find anywhere in the world. He also wanted to know, just to reaffirm, his belief in our shared belief in the god of Abraham, our shared commitment to the Ten Commandments and our shared belief that society must have a spiritual dimension.

You’ve written a lot about interfaith relations, notably in your book ‘The Dignity of Difference’, yet in trying to reach out to other faiths you’ve been accused of heresy against traditional Orthodox teachings – what do you say to your accusers about the truth to be found in other religions?

Well, what is absolutely clear from the Bible is that you have some very godly individuals who are not part of the Abrahamic covenant. Famously you have Melchizedek, the contemporary of Abraham who is called by the Bible “the priest of the most high God”, you have Moses’ father-in-law Jethro, a Midianite priest, and, my favorite of all, which is Pharaoh’s daughter who, at great risk to herself, saves the young Moses. Without a Pharaoh’s daughter there wouldn’t be a Moses, so the Bible is not partisan at all in the way it sees righteousness and godliness. It sees it in all sorts of places.

Jewish attitudes towards the Catholic Church also seem to be divided with some applauding Benedict and John Paul before him for implementing the spirit of Nostra Aetate – others still seem to see the Church only in terms of the possible beatification of Pius XII and a perceived failure to apologise for not speaking out enough against the Holocaust?

My view is axiomatic and fundamental. The God of love and forgiveness created humanity in love and forgiveness, and asks of us to love and forgive others. And that is the attitude I bring to Jewish-Christian relations. And I hope it’s the attitude Christians bring to that same relationship. We recognize the extraordinary about-turn that occurred in the Catholic Church at really the inspiration and depth of compassion of Pope John XXIII, which set in motion the process that culminated in Vatican II, the result of which is that Jews and Catholics, having been estranged for many centuries, now meet again today as cherished and respected friends. You would find it hard to find a transition like that in the whole of European history. So I see the hope vastly outweighing the anxieties, and the good news vastly exceeding the bad.

Divisions between Liberal and Orthodox, reformists and traditionalists, in Judaism as well as within the Christian Churches, sometimes seem as damaging as the tensions between the different faiths – do you see an increasing polarisation within the Jewish world?

No, in Britain we have actually solved the problem, and we had to solve the problem because we cannot make peace with the world if we cannot make peace among ourselves. And when relationships got a little tense, some fifteen years ago, I sat down and said to myself “we have to develop fundamental principals of a relationship that has integrity.” In the end I formulated two principals – and they work. Number one: on all matters that affect us as Jews, regardless of our religious denomination we will work together regardless of our religious denomination. On all matters that touch on our differences, we will agree to differ, but with respect. The result of which is that orthodox and non-orthodox Jews in Britain are closer together today than they were at any other time, Of course, a famous Jew, Abba Eban, once said “we’re the people who can’t take yes for an answer”. So there are some people who have not quite caught up with reality, but the fact is that for the first time in history, I, as an orthodox chief rabbi, sit together with reform and liberal rabbis as joint presidents of the Council of Christians and Jews, and on inter-faith matters, as in all matters that touch on our common fate, we work together.

Do you see anti-semitism as on the rise in Europe today?

I am mortified by the return of anti-Semitism to Europe within living memory of the Holocaust. We had believed “never again” but it has returned. It is extremely worrying and disturbing and, as I said very candidly at a EU conference convened by Romano Prodi already eight years ago in the EU Centre in Brussels, I said: Jews cannot fight anti-Semitism alone. The victim cannot cure the crime. The hated cannot cure the hate. I will fight for the right of Christians anywhere in the world to live their faith without fear, but I need them to fight for my right, the right of my people, to live their faith without fear. The result is that in Britain we have become perhaps the first country where the fight against anti-Semitism is led by non-Jews and that is very moving and very significant.

So it’s a coalition of leaders that is speaking out today?

It is a coalition of parliamentarians led by the Prime Minister: Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, David Cameron, have all got up in public and said quite simply “I promise that Jews will never have to fight anti-Semitism alone”. They’ve accepted that responsibility, and it’s very important. At the same time, I believe in the other side of the bargain as well. So on Friday, just a few days ago, I spoke in the House of Lords about my concern and my solidarity with Christians in the Middle East who are suffering persecution and great uncertainty. There’s been a mass exodus of Christians from Iraq, as many as 100,000 Christians – Coptic Christians, have left Egypt, we have the situation of Christians in Syria entirely in doubt and it is important that Jews, the British Jews, the European Jewish community stand in solidarity with Christians where they face persecution.

How much do you see the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict at the heart of these other problems in the Middle East and even behind the rise in anti-Semitism?

I refuse to accept that for one simple reason, and I tell this to my Muslim friends and I tell this to my friends of all faiths: we must be sending a message of coexistence from Europe to the Middle East. We must not allow ourselves to import a message of conflict from the Middle East to Europe. If the already difficult situation between Israelis and Palestinians is difficult enough in itself, that the whole of Europe should be made a proxy battle field for that conflict will not bring peace but on the contrary will devastate the outstandingly good relations that exist between the faiths in Europe.

The political process seems to be in stalemate there – do you see any signs of hope for an end to the conflict?

I have made a great distinction in all my writings between optimism and hope. And knowing history as we do, no Jew can be an optimist. But no Jew worthy of the name ever lost hope. And when it comes to the peace in the Middle East between Israelis and Palestinians, I refuse to give up hope. There is still a genuine majority on both sides in favor of a two state solution. And although the political process may have reached a momentary stalemate, as it seems to have done, nonetheless the underlying attitudes on both sides embolden my hope to believe that a peaceful settlement is possible and will be reached.

You’ve said you’ll be stepping down from your job in 2013 – what do your see as your most significant success over the years, what would you most like to be remembered for?

We tried to do three things and I think we succeeded. First, I made a pledge that we would increase the level and depth of Jewish education. And we have seen in twenty years the percentage of Jewish children at Jewish day-schools go-up from around 25-30% to nearly 70%. So we’ve built more Jewish day-schools in the last twenty years than at any previous time in our over 350 year history. The second was I wanted to be a catalyst for creativity. I note that the Pope calls the Catholic Church today ‘a creative minority’. Now to be a Jew is to be a member of a creative minority and we’ve seen in the last 20 years an explosion in cultural and other forms of Jewish expression, some religious, some not, but all vivid, vital and full of energy and we have a much more energetic community than we had before. And finally, I took it on myself, as far as I could by just doing it, to allow the Jewish voice to be heard in the public square. I believe that Jews should not simply keep to themselves, we should seek to be a voice in the conversation of humankind, in fact I define Judaism as the voice of hope in the conversation of humankind. The British public has been quite extraordinarily warm in welcoming that sharing of Jewish wisdom and I believe we are all enriched when the great faiths share their wisdom with those of any faiths and those of none.